Any Mautic version that doesn't end with '.9' is NOT fit for use in business!

General Discussion
21

In hindsight, I don’t think a normal user can contribute anything meaningful regarding authoring documentation.
Because that would require knowing what certain things do and how they are supposed to do.
Without that knowledge, I can’t contribute anything to the documentation (other than asking what those things are and how they are supposed to work).

So, @redneckbob released a brain fart when he suggested that I should contribute something to the documentation.

The only thing we, normal users, can provide in terms of “help” in regards to the documentation is feedback/questions.
We might be able to improve the existing documentation chapters but that’s not really needed. Most of the existing documentation chapters are good enough.
What’s needed is the documentation for those things that aren’t mentioned anywhere with a single word!
No one can write that documentation except for the developers themselves (or the managers who know what those parts are doing and how they are to be used).

@gigcity
As I mentioned a few posts above, version 2.7.1 now has 136 open bugs.
So, you aren’t gonna be a happy bunny if you upgrade to that version.
I tried 2.7.1 myself on a test installation. It’s a FAIL like all versions prior to that.
Not even all “wheels” are turning on the Mautic “car” version 2.7.1.

22

@abb

Your duplicity is outstanding.

Let me help you, gratis versus libre is not begging off with impotent whimpering for free beer when given free speech.

You have options, buy Marketing Basic for $200 per/mo with a 12 month commitment for 100 contacts, so $2400 at the jump. Go over 100 contacts? That is another $1200 per year. get it - $3600.00

Another option, Professional version $600 per/mo with a 12 month commitment, 1,000 contacts, so $7200 at the jump. Get out the wallet and go here - $7200.00 buy it.

Third option is to fork the code, it is libre, and get to work. I’m confident you could have the non-functioning wheels rolling rather quickly.

What say you?

PS - And, send us all some free beer.

23

The @redneckbob being a typical redneck once again goes off-topic.
Why?
Because brain use is hard for him due to non-existence.

I opened this thread to discuss a systemic, structural issue of the management
and I pointed out that the way WordPress (which also happens to be a free software) manages software development allows the use of software in a production environment in business whereas the way Mautic management handles it has not resulted in a single version of this software that is fit for use in a production environment in business.
[h]That is the discussion topic here![/h]
And anyone with more than 2 brain cells (unlike @redneckbob) is welcome to contribute to the discussion on this topic.

24

[quote=21737:@abb]The @redneckbob being a typical redneck once again goes off-topic.
Why?
Because brain use is hard for him due to non-existence.

I opened this thread to discuss a systemic, structural issue of the management
and I pointed out that the way WordPress (which also happens to be a free software) manages software development allows the use of software in a production environment in business whereas the way Mautic management handles it has not resulted in a single version of this software that is fit for use in a production environment in business.
[h]That is the discussion topic here![/h]
And anyone with more than 2 brain cells (unlike @redneckbob) is welcome to contribute to the discussion on this topic.[/quote]

@abb STOP Bashing other users if you want anyone to take you seriously

25

Any user, developer, or observer of these forums effortlessly comprehends there are issues with Mautic within minutes, yet the entire codebase and documentation set is there to be forked, modified, and fixed. In fact, there are entire forked copies on Github, both Mautic and the documentation.

Yet this one believes himself as the prophet of original assessment and purveyor of previously undisclosed knowledge that once revealed to the community it will magically inspire the developers to overhaul their procedures.

Oddly, his ungrateful, entitled, and unappreciative behaviour will achieve the exact opposite. Lazy and limp motivational tactics like whining and complaining tend be not only ineffective and uninspiring, but demotivating to developers.

What is effective? Action. Fork the documentation set on github, contribute, accept patches, and build a better set of documentation. Be consistent, persistent, responsive, and you’ll gather a following.

-RB

PS - @abb said, “Because brain use is hard for him due to non-existence.”

Ad Hominem attacks are the last refuge of the defeated.

26

All,
I’ve been sitting back and observing this thread and biding my time before commenting.

As many of you will be aware, I (like most) have had my issues with Mautic. I also:

  • try to help others where I can with my very limited knowledge.
  • have also suggested some approaches to try and get the best bang for our buck (irony intended) out of the developers - I still believe those approaches would add significant value to the overall project.
  • have committed to improving the documentation by providing ‘recipes’ for real world use cases once I am confident those use cases can be delivered in a way I am happy with.

I don’t say all this to be self congratulatory but rather to provide @abb a method to try and achieve change that doesn’t involve lots of bold face and large type.

@abb - please stop bashing people. Nothing constructive will come from it. If you are so frustrated with Mautic that you feel the need to abuse other users (many of whom are incredibly helpful, and many are having their own issues with the product) then maybe a different tool is right for you? Whilst your original topic was around version freezing, it is clear the topic has broadened since then.

@ everyone else. My frustrations with, and my commitment to Mautic remains. I still see the biggest issue being the lack of a clear road-map for features (in a usable production state) as defined by the users. It may well exist and if so, I’ll stand corrected and STFU LOL

Cheers
Jo

27

@JoPitts Well said!! Thank you for the assistance you provide to everyone.

Yes many of us have experienced plenty of frustration, but the only way we will get to light at the end of the tunnel is through respectable discussion. I have said it before everyone is entitled to their opinion. Constructive conversation will lead much further than arguing, and degrading each other.

28

@manageit

It is bugger all, but I do what I can.

I have proposed several times that a group of users agree several core and fundamentally real world use cases and then work out which bits are hard/impossible to achieve with the current Mautic functionality. The developers could then focus their efforts on these missing/half developed features rather than on features that are of no value when other core functionality isn’t working.

I have also said that I’ll happily contribute to that group. Not sure how you feel about that notion?

Cheers
Jo

29

I too support that approach, and I also support the core concept behind @abb’s original post about feature freezes between versions to ensure that each minor version is getting progressively more stable. I had suggested them same thing in another thread about a month ago.

30

@manageit , I can happily get behind that notion. X.Y.0 introduces new features. X.Y.1 through X.Y.9 increases the stability (and potentially richness?) of those features.

Is my bracketed statement contentious?

It would need a collection of users such as @imautic, @ninjoan, @MxyzptlkFishStix, and yourself (and others I can’t think of right now). I’d like to think I could add value (given I have a decent chunk of experience in the Marketing Automation space), but I’d not vote myself on to the island - I’d let others do that. It clearly would need buy in from the developers.

BTW - An awesome side effect of this approach is that the ‘recipes’ I spoke of earlier basically fall out of the exercise of determining how a certain use case could be achieved.

Cheers
Jo

31

Exactly .1-.9 increase stabilty and enhance the features added at the Major version.

Funny that you have marketing automation experience, I have ZERO experience with it, but trying to learn it grow my company. My experience is in leading dev teams, and managing IT projects. I personally rate myself as an advanved beginner in programming in that I can copy and paste anything to patch together things that work for my needs.

32

@manageit , up until recently I was CTO for a large agency in New Zealand that delivers exception MA solutions into the grocery space, financial institutions, and telcos.

My recent experience is Governance, PM, Tech Lead, Solution Architecture, and yes - Marketing Automation.

33

Nice, sometime maybe you would let me pick your brain a little.

34

happily. PM me and we’ll try to set something up

35

Will do, thanks

36

I’m glad that we finally got the off-topic trolls silenced
and a discussion going about the substance of the matter.

So, it seems that we are in agreement that my original idea/proposal has merit.
To reiterate, the proposal is:
After each major version release, freeze the introduction of ANY new features until 9 minor versions have been released that are solely focusing on fixing the bugs and making the existing features actually work in a real-life scenario.

That would give all those users confidence who are actually looking to use the software in a production environment in business. A version like X.Y.9 can be regarded as suitable for use in a production environment because all critical issues will be fixed by the time a version reaches maturity with X.Y.9.

[h]Business users can then have TRUST in Mautic.[/h]

Now, the big question is:
How can we actually get this implemented?
I mean, the current management doesn’t seem to pay any attention to this forum.

How do we get beyond a mere discussion and agreement on the core points?

37

@abb You have now said the same thing over and over. We understand your point clear enough. Let the people that are respected in this forum have their say.
Human nature is such that people will accept ideas from people they respect, and completely ignore those from people they don’t. In an online community, the only way to gain respect, is to handle all interactions professionally. In this thread, you have a solid idea, but have undermined yourself with the total lack of professionalism. The only way to recover is to take a step back, and reconsider your approach.

38

@manageit
And that’s where you come in, mate!
You and Jo should push this issue forward and I’ll support you guys.

There’s no need for me to “recover” from anything or to change my approach. I’m perfectly aware of the way I choose to communicate. And I know that not everyone likes my raw and honest approach. That doesn’t matter.
What matters is that you and others see the bloody common sense in my proposal.
There’s no need to be a genius to come up with that proposal.
There should have been 100 people before me suggesting the exact same thing.

Anyway, now it’s time for you, mate to jump into action.
Let’s get this thread here buried and focus on a new one. :wink:

39

@abb says, And that’s where you come in, mate! You and Jo should push this issue forward and I’ll support you guys.

Like, sweetums, grab your pink tuutuu, white stockings, and blue pom poms and move along to the sidelines of life and cheer! Give me a J! Give me an O! Cheer! Cheer!

You ready to put on your big boy panties and do some real work? No? Then leave.

Yes? You want to contribute but you can’t program? Then waddle over here my lazy entitled big boy panties wearing around your ankles and get something under those fingernails besides boogers, like keystrokes that have purpose and meaning:

@abb says, How can we actually get this implemented?

You asked, I’m delivering, and we here expect you to step up. Smash bugs: https://github.com/mautic/mautic

How to test a pull request
Everyone can test submitted features and bug fixes. No programming skills are required (ahem, @abb) . All you have to do is to follow the steps below.

Install the latest GitHub version

  • Open a Terminal/Console window.
  • Change directory to the server root (i.e. cd /var/www if your local server root is at /var/www).
  • Clone the repository (git clone https://github.com/mautic/mautic.git)
  • The mautic directory should appear in the server root. Change directory to mautic directory (cd mautic).
  • Install dependencies (composer install).
  • Visit Mautic in a browser (probably at http://localhost/mautic) and follow installation steps.

Development Environment
Mautic downloaded from GitHub have the development environment. You can access it by adding index_dev.php after the Mautic URL. Eg. http://localhost/mautic/index_dev.php/s/. Or in case of CLI commands, add --env=dev attribute to it.

This development environment will display the PHP errors, warnings and notices directly as the output so you don’t have to open the log to see them. It will also load for example translations without cache, so every change you make will be visible without clearing it. The only changes which requires clearing the cache are in the config.php files.

In case of assets like JS, CSS, the source files are loaded instead of concatenated, minified file. This way the changes in those files will be directly visible on refresh. If you’d want to see the change in production environment, you’d have to run the app/console mautic:assets:generate command.

In many cases, the CSS files are built from LESS files. To compile the changes in the LESS files, run grunt compile-less command.

Test a Pull Request (PR)
Every change to Mautic core happens via PRs. Every PR must have 2 successful tests to be merged to the core and released in the next version. Testing a PR is a great way how to move Mautic forward and personally improve its quality and stability.

Select a PR to test.
Read the description and steps to test. If it’s a bug fix, follow the steps if you’ll be able to recreate the issue.
Use the development environment (above) for testing.

Apply the PR
Clear cache for development environment (rm -rf app/cache/* or app/console cache:clear -e dev).
Follow the steps from the PR description again to see if the result is as described.
Write a comment how the test went.

If there is a problem, provide as many information as possible including error log messages.

Or, @abb, you can cheer in your pink tuu tuu on the sidelines of life while we get real work done.

40

@redneckbob , all aspects of David Bowie this aside, I appreciate the info on how to test a PR. I’ve been trying to find this out.

I’m still uncertain as to how you feel about the various thoughts around moving to a wordpress type model of X.Y.0 being used to introduce features, and then X.Y.1-X.Y.9 being used to bug fix/refine/enrich those features, or the proposal of working to define a development roadmap based on real world use cases (or some alternative that helps get Mautic to a great place with the least amount of time and effort from all).

Cheers
Jo