Any Mautic version that doesn't end with '.9' is NOT fit for use in business!

[quote=21856:@JoPitts]@redneckbob , all aspects of David Bowie this aside, I appreciate the info on how to test a PR. I’ve been trying to find this out.

I’m still uncertain as to how you feel about the various thoughts around moving to a wordpress type model of X.Y.0 being used to introduce features, and then X.Y.1-X.Y.9 being used to bug fix/refine/enrich those features, or the proposal of working to define a development roadmap based on real world use cases (or some alternative that helps get Mautic to a great place with the least amount of time and effort from all).

Cheers
Jo[/quote]

It would be my opinion the release manager and top level developers be participants in this conversation.

Take the Linux kernel, it follows a model that is close to what was proposed, let’s say 3.7 gets released and developers start stabilizing it with patches (3.7.1, 3.7.2). Linus opens the merge window, around 2 weeks during which he will accept new features that have undergone testing in other branches.

When the merge window closes, Linus releases 3.8-rc0 (release candidate #0), after which only bug fixes are accepted specifically for the kernel, but sometimes an old feature is added back. Each following week, roughly, Linus releases -rc1, -rc2, … until he is satisfied that there are no more bugs (typically around -rc6), and 3.8 is born.

Then the cycle starts again. While all this goes on, the developer crowd is busy working on changes to be proposed for future merge windows.

We should loop them in on the conversation as we don’t know all the issues, most importantly we are really not in a position of power to demand they modify their release process. Could be any number of issues, like lack of contributions and testing by the community. Maybe the community needs to become more effective participants.

Who is responsible for the releases and who are the top contributors? I’d be happy to reach out to them.

[quote=21856:@JoPitts]@redneckbob , all aspects of David Bowie this aside, I appreciate the info on how to test a PR. I’ve been trying to find this out.

I’m still uncertain as to how you feel about the various thoughts around moving to a wordpress type model of X.Y.0 being used to introduce features, and then X.Y.1-X.Y.9 being used to bug fix/refine/enrich those features, or the proposal of working to define a development roadmap based on real world use cases (or some alternative that helps get Mautic to a great place with the least amount of time and effort from all).

Cheers
Jo[/quote]

Just got your Bowie reference, heh.

I modded a rather large boxing forum for 9 years that was full of a couple brilliant savants, an opiate addicted history buff who never got a fact wrong, couple lawyers, a guy with something like 18 patents, along with a whole cast of characters so deep you’d never reach bottom. While it was survival of the fittest, we were never too quick to ban as usually these issues subside on their own.

I didn’t want to pick on @abb and won’t pick on @abb again.

The flip side is a group of us are stepping up and appear to be willing to contribute. I’m firmly absolutely with-out-a-doubt 100% convinced that @abb downloaded the XAMPP stack, installed Mautic, and testing PRs as I’m typing this.

More soon…

@redneckbob

Completely agree that we need their buy in (as per some of my other statements).

Maybe a post to github might help? Not sure. Happy to be the one to try, and equally happy to let those more competent take the lead (hell, I’ve got @abb being my cheerleader, I’m not going to promote myself LOL)

Cheers
Jo

The only way to get the support from the dev team involved will be for many of us to get on Slack. Then we make our proposition, while making it fully clear we are willing to participate in any way we can that can be of assistance (testing, documenting, etc…)

@manageit , to get on slack one needs a mautic.org email address. I’ve asked how to get one, and had no response.
If I had one, I’d be on slack in a heartbeat!

Wrong!
Before Mautic developers and/or managers fix the process, I won’t do shit in terms of contributions (except posting here, in case that counts).
Because in my non-humble opinion doing otherwise would be dead-stupid and a complete waste of time.
There has never been a version of Mautic that’s fit for use in a real-life environment in business
AND there never will be such version UNTIL they fix the process.

But once they do fix the process – and ONLY THEN – I’ll gladly try to contribute as much as I can.
Because then and ONLY THEN my time won’t be wasted.

If you guys tell me how and where to login, I’ll make sure to login there ANY TIME day or night! (to add my voice there)
Plus, I’ll private message folks in the forum (if you want me to) and direct them to do the same in order to increase the number of people (and pressure) there.
So, you can count on me being there, on Slack, ANY TIME day or night.
I’ll cancel any of my personal or business appointments if needed.
That’s how committed I am to contributing where it actually makes SENSE and actually is designed to fix the ROOT of the problem!

But don’t ask me to do anything else before the root of the problem is fixed.

P.S. Apparently, Linus has a normally functioning brain too. Since the version release/development process described above is very similar to mine.
As I said before: There’s no need to be a genius to come up with this idea.
It’s common bloody sense! There should have been 100 people before me suggesting the exact same thing in this forum.

But since this forum seems to be filled with lots of 14-year old snowflakes who are happy to eat any garbage as long as it’s free, everyone seems to be afraid to offer some real criticism and state the bloody obvious flaws in the process!
If you get a spade or a BROKEN spade in this case, you need to call it that.
Don’t try to cover it in honey. Just call a spade a spade.

And if the developers aren’t able to deal with criticism (regardless of how it is expressed) and use that criticism to fix their shit, then this baby will always remain dead and useless for real-life use cases in business.
Simple as that.
I believe Mautic developers do have a brain.
It’s just the management that fell asleep.
So, the developers keep churning stuff out but it’s all broken spades.
Not a single spade has been produced so far that isn’t broken.
It’s bloody time to wake the managers! They’ve been sleeping long enough.

UPDATE:
The number of open bugs has increased again!
From 99 when I started this thread to 136 a week ago to now 147:
https://github.com/mautic/mautic/issues?utf8=✓&q=is%3Aissue%20is%3Aopen%20label%3Abug
Halleluya!
Are you kidding me?
There was no new version release but the number of open and confirmed bugs keeps rising!

I predict that when they release the next major version in the next couple of days (2.8.0), they’ll get a few dozen bugs fixed in that version
BUT because of the new features that new version will add DOZENS of new bugs!

It’s a never ending cycle and this baby will remain dead until the management problem gets fixed.
Any contributions until then would be a complete waste of time.

@abb, your refusal to contribute till you get your way does you a major dis-service. It speaks very much to you being one of the 14 year old snowflakes you appear to despise so much.

I don’t understand why, if you’ve been using Mautic since v1.4.0, you’ve only start contributing now; and further, why your contributions have to be so negatively framed (even though you promote a good idea around release structuring).

I’ve tried to be both patient and diplomatic with you. It clearly isn’t working, so let me be more plainly spoken. Put up or shut up!

Regards
Jo

[quote=21970:@JoPitts]@abb, your refusal to contribute till you get your way does you a major dis-service. It speaks very much to you being one of the 14 year old snowflakes you appear to despise so much.

I don’t understand why, if you’ve been using Mautic since v1.4.0, you’ve only start contributing now; and further, why your contributions have to be so negatively framed (even though you promote a good idea around release structuring).

I’ve tried to be both patient and diplomatic with you. It clearly isn’t working, so let me be more plainly spoken. Put up or shut up!

Regards
Jo[/quote]

There is great opportunity to truly have an impact, to improve the very product he loves, and help solve some of the core issues that generate this fiery passion and rage. With hard work it may be possible to become the very hero the Mautic community needs.

No closed source vendor would allow access to the tools, power and instructions to implement change and become a hero. But, when given the tools, instructions, power, and access there is absolute refusal to participate and ultimately, blame is deflected elsewhere.

The duplicity in the ever shifting positions are remarkable indeed and oddly, does not posses the innate ability to self reflect and to question the essence non-participation.

It is the developers at fault.
It is the documents fault.
It is managements fault.
It is never my fault.

At this point I find it entertaining. Like a grinder monkey playing with loud tambourines on a dirty street in some 3rd world country for pennies. I toss a penny, point, and laugh. He dances there in the dirty street with grubby feet and side eyes begging for another penny, and in that very moment I simultaneously have feelings of empathy and sadness.

And, right as deep sadness rises to overtake the empathy, he throws poop, and I immediately revert back to laughing.

-RB

Wrong.
It’s just me using my brain and not wanting to waste time on broken garbage, as I already explained.
Well, the problem is actually not so much that Mautic is broken right now.
The problem is that ALL versions Mautic has released so far are broken in that they can’t be used in a real-life environment in business and the biggest problem is that:
THERE IS NO PROSPECT OF THIS GETTING BETTER!
In other words, without those structural changes, Mautic WILL REMAIN broken no matter what you do (on the level of contributing to fixing individual bugs).
And if you fail to see that, then I recommend switching your brain on.
I guarantee that’ll help. Just switch it on and you’ll instantly see the problem.

So, don’t confuse brain usage with “dis-service” if you fail to switch your brain on to begin with.

Wrong again.
I’ve never used Mautic in the production environment in business because based on my own testing in a testing environment there HAS NEVER BEEN a version of Mautic that isn’t broken in some way i.e. every single version has some of the important functions broken and you simply CANNOT use that if you are running a business.
Unless you deliberately want to install a software that’s gonna ruin your business.

I would certainly like to use Mautic in a production environment in business BUT ONLY IF at some point they release a version that doesn’t have at least some of the important functions broken.
As I like to say: At least all of the WHEELS on the Mautic “car” must be turning.
If they can’t release a version where at least that is the case, then it’s simply no good.
No matter how much they try to polish the turd. The turd remains a turd.

Of course, it’s a sad thing.
Because in THEORY Mautic potentially could be a very useful software.
But based on my testing in PRACTICE it has remained a turd until this point.

And the saddest thing is:
There’s currently NO indication that this might change in the future.
I certainly HOPE this will change at some point in the future and this is why I’ve been posting in this forum.
But sadly, at presence there’s no indication it will.

Because the existing approach of 14-year olds in this forum has so far been to polish and to lick the turd.
And that approach has proven ineffective.
Trying to polish and to lick and to praise the turd clearly doesn’t change the fact that it remains a turd.

My approach might not be to everyone’s liking and in fact, I know that the 14-year olds in this forum hate it (I knew it before I started posting), but at the very least my approach has sparked an emotionally charged discussion and it regularly FORCES you to come back to this thread and to post here (even though from my point of view this thread had accomplished its purpose a long time ago and as far as I’m concerned this thread can be buried or even deleted).
But that supposed “negativity” does sting you and prompts to keep posting here.
You wouldn’t do that in a thread where I’d be singing kumbaya and hallelujah.

Now, will this different approach of mine lead to any actual RESULTS?
i.e. will it produce enough movement that would ultimately result in a version of Mautic that’s no longer a turd?
I don’t know.
But I do know one thing:
If one particular approach isn’t working (and 14-year olds licking and praising the turd clearly doesn’t work),
then you should try a different approach IF you have a brain.
Keeping doing things that don’t work is one definition of insanity.

You should always speak plainly. Leave the “diplomatic” speak to corporate idiots. That’s their domain.
Oh, and don’t tell me what to do.
I’ll always do what I consider to be the right thing to do.
And I don’t take orders from anybody.
If anything I GIVE orders.
However, in this forum, I haven’t been giving any orders.
In this forum, I attempted to spark an emotionally charged discussion (mission accomplished)
and also tried to check if there are sufficient users in this forum who actually use their brain (as opposed to the 14-year olds who just like to polish and lick the turd because they got it for free).

Well, so far not too many people have raised their hand and confirmed that they’d also to see this structural, fundamental problem fixed that I’ve described in my first post in this thread.

The difference between smart and not so smart people in business is that not very smart people like to keep themselves busy by just doing “some work” without giving any consideration as to how much impact that work has on the actual long-term bottom-line RESULTS.
It’s the approach of keeping oneself busy throwing spaghetti on the wall every day and hoping that someday, in some distant future one spaghetti noodle will finally stick to the wall. That’s for dumb people.

Smart people take one noodle and a tube of superglue, walk up to the wall and glue the noodle instantly and permanently to the wall and in the exact shape they wish.
So, instead of doing LOTS of dumb work and working “hard”, smart people prefer to work smart and produce actual bottom-line results with the least amount of work possible.

And of course, if you expressively WISH to work 20 or 100 times more than necessary to accomplish a particular result, then you should be free to do so. But I definitely DON’T belong to that category.
I prefer getting results with the least effort possible.

In this thread, I just wanted to see if there are enough users frequenting this forum who’d like at least occasionally getting a Mautic version that’s not a nicely polished turd but a version that could actually be used in a real-world business environment.
Well, there don’t seem to be too many of such users in this forum.

Anyway, don’t expect me to polish the turd for you.
Not gonna happen.
ONLY if Mautic developers/management make a conscious effort and commit to releasing – at least occasionally – a version that’s not a turd (unlike all of the existing Mautic versions so far) ONLY THEN will I be willing to contribute anything meaningful.

[h]Until that happens, I’ll gladly let you guys lick and polish this turd.[/h]

“product he loves”???
And who is it exactly who “loves” this “product”?..
Oh, right, the 14-year olds that love licking and polishing this turd!
Sorry, almost forgot!
But yes, you’re right, they absolutely LOVE to lick and to polish this turd!
Amazing, isn’t it?

“Hard work” is for dummies.
Remember, those without a brain!

Those that do have a brain (and also manage to switch it on) prefer the “smart work” paradigm.
Gets a lot more actual RESULTS (desirable results) produced in much less time.

And I agree:
It’s so sad that you just can’t put a brain into a dummy!
I mean, you could but that wouldn’t do anything.
So SAD!.. Almost makes me wanna cry… oops one tear just came out!
Those poor little dummies!..
It’s such an incredible misfortune that they don’t have a brain!

[quote=21993:@abb]And who is it exactly who “loves” this “product”?..
[/quote]

Clearly, you do. You come here often to stand on the sidelines of life to spew forth your limitless fountain of knowledge and charming wisdom as the winners take the field.

I’d like to encourage you remain on there on the sidelines of life and continue spewing nonsense at the men and women on the field, getting their hands dirty, feeling alive, and winning at the game of life.

We all have be good at something and you’ve now found your role.

Cheer us on @abb, cheer us on…

You’re right.
The 14-year olds just love getting their hands dirty playing with this turd
and they also like getting their tongue dirty by licking this turd.

And you’re also correct in that I prefer to watch these kids playing the game of licking the turd from a distance.
Far enough so that the stink of the turd doesn’t reach me.

There’s no need to cheer on the 14-year olds, though.
They like licking the turd and planting their face into it without any encouragement.

By the way, here are more people who also have a brain and aren’t 14-year olds
and pretty much all of them also think that Mautic is a turd, nicely polished turd but still a turd:
https://www.mautic.org/community/index.php/6869-goodbye-mautic-huge-discrepancy-terribly-inaccurate-page-hit-tr

Some of those people had contributed a lot to the Mautic community in the past and used to be very enthusiastic about it.
Now, even those people think that Mautic is just a nicely polished turd. Useless in a production environment in business.

I predict that if Mautic developers/management don’t implement what I suggested in my first post in this thread (or something very similar to it),
then Mautic will always remain a turd.

Hi,

I’ve been using mautic since 2.4, currently have 2.7.1 running perfectly fine with a couple bug issues I’m seemingly picking up on… mainly notifications and today mailbox monitoring.

I’m new to the community but will gladly help with testing and bug reporting, I have multiple servers on shared and dedicated environments so you test on both in regards to limitations. I can code but probably nowhere near as good as you guys but once I become more familiar with mautic’s code and how it works then I’d gladly put my two pence in there as well.

It’s a great tool and even with all the frustrations I’d like to help it and you guys push forward with it