Mautic Community Forums

Mautic lands in promotions or spam folders, seems to be impossible to tweak, any idea?

Your software
My Mautic version is:3.1.1
My PHP version is:7.3

Your problem
I have been trying to make this work for a week now, but to no avail. Unless the message contains nothing, like:

“Hi Mom, how are you”

I can’t get message to land in inbox, only in promotions, spam or if the message is pretty much empty, it lands in “inbox/updates” tab.

I’ve been trying this for a week, half dozen Mautic installs, on Google cloud and shared host, with dozen email addresses, form Google, Outlook, Yahoo, none of it works.

Here is what I tried.

Mautic installs:

  • Google cloud deploy compute engine
  • Google cloud Bitnami compute engine
  • Shared hosting

Email providers:

  • Gmail personal
  • Gsuite Business
  • Outlook
  • Yahoo

URL versions

  • Private domain
  • Google cloud IP address
  • SSL
  • Free domain

Settings

  • CORS on
  • CORS off
  • CORS on with URL
  • CORS on with IP address
  • Disabled link tracking
  • Disabled tracking
  • Custom headers

I have done testing to compare results and ALL other solutions worked, ONLY Mautic failed. The sending tests were done with EXACT same data and spreadsheet, same message for all sends.

  • Outlook mail merge
  • SalesHandy
  • YAMM
  • Gmass
  • Single CC

Can anybody successfully pass the gmass test, is this even possible at all with Mautic? I also tried to send to my own accounts, and mautic lands in promotions or spam folders

Test is over here:

Email that passes all tests with other platform but fails with mautic text is as follows, it’s NOT spam, my open rate is 20-40% and all my email accounts have flawless reputations, some are 15 years old or more. All accounts pass DKIM, SPF and DMARK, flying colors, all of it pristine.

Message text is:

Hi {contactfield=firstname}‍‍,

A few days ago I sent you a personal message asking if you might need help with your website.

Maybe you’ve been too busy or may have missed it?

But anyways, if you have a second, could you do me a favor and reply with a simple a, b or c from the options below?

a. Yes, I may be interested
b. Yes, but now is not a good time, try me again a little later
c. No thank you, I’m fine

Regards,
Bruno Vincent
Xuzo . com

Sreen capture of test results is below, mautic column goes in promotion, YAMM and Gmass inbox:

You should post the full raw messages in order to understand what the real difference is.
Maybe we can spot something.

https://docs.nylas.com/docs/getting-raw-message-contents#:~:text=Gmail%20and%20Inbox,and%20send%20it%20to%20Nylas.

Thanks Joey,

This is going to be a long reply! I did three tests on 6 browsers with identical messages, attaching screen captures of results also, Mautic lands in promotions tab at 100%, others in primary inbox.

Mautic (fail)

Original Message

Message ID 7abc321a8bc2682d7375863d06457dec@35.233.141.211
Created at: Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 12:31 PM (Delivered after 12533 seconds)
From: Bruno Vincent steveharold159@gmail.com
To: Sam brunoxuzo@gmail.com
Subject: Final message to Sam’s Hardware‍
SPF: PASS with IP 209.85.220.65 Learn more
DKIM: ‘PASS’ with domain gmail.com Learn more
DMARC: ‘PASS’ Learn more

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Thu, 22 Oct 2020 02:00:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bruno Vincent steveharold159@gmail.com
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Return-Path: monitoring+bounce_5f91194b83341230683746@drupalmigrationservices.tech
Message-ID: 7abc321a8bc2682d7375863d06457dec@35.233.141.211
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 12:31:51 +0700
Subject: Final message to Sam’s Hardware‍
To: Sam brunoxuzo@gmail.com
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=swift_1603344711_4e48563dfc19b5cd7610e7bcee548061=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
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Hi Sam=E2=80=8D=E2=80=8D,

A few days ago I sent you a personal message asking if you might need help =
with your website.

Maybe you’ve been too busy or may have missed it?

But anyways, if you have a second, could you do me a favor and reply with a=
simple a, b or c from the options below?

a. Yes, I may be interested
b. Yes, but now is not a good time, try me again a little later
c. No thank you, I’m fine

Regards,
Bruno Vincent
Senior Web Technologist
Xuzo . com

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Final message to Sam=E2=80=99s Hardware=E2=80=8D
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<div data-slot=3D"text">Hi Sam=E2=80=8D=
=E2=80=8D,

A few days ago I sent you a personal message asking i=
f you might need help with your website.

Maybe you’ve been too b=
usy or may have missed it?

But anyways, if you have a second, co=
uld you do me a favor and reply with a simple a, b or c from the options be=
low?

a. Yes, I may be interested
b. Yes, but now is not a g=
ood time, try me again a little later
c. No thank you, I’m fine
<=
br />Regards,
Bruno Vincent
Senior Web Technologist
Xuzo . c=
om






=swift_1603344711_4e48563dfc19b5cd7610e7bcee548061=

YAMM(pass):

Original Message

Message ID CAK+0Sfa_3dFHfgugRsumXwv6Gn8NqMrdgq-Fv-N-q+Teq69=2w@mail.gmail.com
Created at: Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 4:37 PM (Delivered after 1 second)
From: Bruno Vincent steveharold159@gmail.com
To: Brunoxuzo brunoxuzo@gmail.com
Subject: Final message to Sam’s Hardware
SPF: PASS with IP 209.85.220.65 Learn more
DKIM: ‘PASS’ with domain gmail.com Learn more
DMARC: ‘PASS’ Learn more

Delivered-To: brunoxuzo@gmail.com
Received: by 2002:a05:6102:38a:0:0:0:0 with SMTP id m10csp5662280vsq;
Thu, 22 Oct 2020 02:37:52 -0700 (PDT)
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MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: Bruno Vincent steveharold159@gmail.com
From: Bruno Vincent steveharold159@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 02:37:51 -0700
X-Google-Sender-Auth: Eq8K_ydkBo8Nojns7Jv9QbDLq9s
Message-ID: CAK+0Sfa_3dFHfgugRsumXwv6Gn8NqMrdgq-Fv-N-q+Teq69=2w@mail.gmail.com
Subject: Final message to Sam’s Hardware
To: Brunoxuzo brunoxuzo@gmail.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=“000000000000c8cb3305b23f37a6”

–000000000000c8cb3305b23f37a6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=“UTF-8”
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi {{firstname}=E2=80=8D=E2=80=8D},

A few days ago I sent you a personal message asking if you might need help
with your website.

Maybe you’ve been too busy or may have missed it?

But anyways, if you have a second, could you do me a favor and reply with a
simple a, b or c from the options below?

a. Yes, I may be interested
b. Yes, but now is not a good time, try me again a little later
c. No thank you, I’m fine

Regards,
Bruno Vincent
Senior Web Technologist
Xuzo . com
[image: beacon]

–000000000000c8cb3305b23f37a6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=“UTF-8”
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi {{firstname}=E2=80=8D=E2=80=8D},

A few days ago = I sent you a personal message asking if you might need help with your websi= te.

Maybe you've been too busy or may have missed it?

But= anyways, if you have a second, could you do me a favor and reply with a si= mple a, b or c from the options below?

a. Yes, I may be interestedb. Yes, but now is not a good time, try me again a little later
c. No = thank you, I'm fine

Regards,
Bruno Vincent
Senior Web Tech= nologist
Xuzo . com
3D"beacon"

–000000000000c8cb3305b23f37a6–

GMASS(pass):

Message ID CAK+0SfZ0X_2VuZzWe21nbq+59wqm_uM0DJRyJGvQzQQ-FfBmDQ@mail.gmail.com
Created at: Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 4:50 PM (Delivered after 1 second)
From: Steve Harold steveharold159@gmail.com
To: brunoxuzo@gmail.com
Subject: Final message to Sam’s Hardware
SPF: PASS with IP 209.85.220.65 Learn more
DKIM: ‘PASS’ with domain gmail.com Learn more
DMARC: ‘PASS’ Learn more

Delivered-To: brunoxuzo@gmail.com
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From: Steve Harold steveharold159@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 02:50:01 -0700
Message-ID: CAK+0SfZ0X_2VuZzWe21nbq+59wqm_uM0DJRyJGvQzQQ-FfBmDQ@mail.gmail.com
Subject: Final message to Sam’s Hardware
To: brunoxuzo@gmail.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=“00000000000048f38c05b23f6304”

–00000000000048f38c05b23f6304
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=“UTF-8”

Hi Sam,

A few days ago I sent you a personal message asking if you might need help
with your website.

Maybe you’ve been too busy or may have missed it?

But anyways, if you have a second, could you do me a favor and reply with a
simple a, b or c from the options below?

a. Yes, I may be interested
b. Yes, but now is not a good time, try me again a little later
c. No thank you, I’m fine

Regards,
Bruno Vincent
Senior Web Technologist
Xuzo . com

–00000000000048f38c05b23f6304
Content-Type: text/html; charset=“UTF-8”
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Sam,

A few days ago I sent you a personal messag= e asking if you might need help with your website.

Maybe you've = been too busy or may have missed it?

But anyways, if you have a seco= nd, could you do me a favor and reply with a simple a, b or c from the opti= ons below?

a. Yes, I may be interested
b. Yes, but now is not a g= ood time, try me again a little later
c. No thank you, I'm fine
<= br>Regards,
Bruno Vincent
Senior Web Technologist
Xuzo . com

–00000000000048f38c05b23f6304–

You are comparing apple with oranges.

Yamm and Gmass will imitate you sending out email from Gmail via API.
They violate all anti-spamming rules as not disclosing the fact, that you ARE bulk sending and not giving list-unsubscribe option. (Opposite of bulk sending is hand-sending, and you don’t need Mautic for that) By faking your sending method you can not scale above 500 emails / day. If you try, Gmail will punish you. If you will keep sending your 500/day, and Gmail notices, that you fake the ‘bulk’ setting in your header, they will punish you, and never get to inbox again.
SUMMARY -> You are Spamming, and it is NOT SCALABLE

Mautic will send an email by using your Gmail SMTP creds using LEGIT bulk mailing technique (Precedence: Bulk, list unsubscribe). If you hqave the bulk tag, you’ll be judged differently. Your emails will land in Promo (Which you are actually, so nothing wrong there) and if you have a relationship, good engagement with these customers, you’ll land in Inbox very soon. Try to make them answer you an email, and it will work.
SUMMARY - > You are conducting legit business, SCALABLE

As you can see I’m always trying to convince you to do the right thing, and not try to fake anything. You put way to much effort into testing and forcing your way around the Gmail AI. It won’t work. No matter how slow you are sending, how you tweak your content, or even if you fake your identity. You can fool the algorythm for a while, but you’ll be cought very soon.

I’m also not a fan of the titles you are using (but I’m nobody here, so whatever), because it’s not Mautic who is landing in Spam, but your content.

1 Like

Hi Joey,

I found the solution, but just like you, I don’t want spammers all over this…so I won’t post it here!

Maybe I should delete this thread?

If your solution is to remove ‘bulk’ from the header, then it is the wrong one and not scalable. But do as you like :slight_smile:

1 Like

Hello @joeyk maybe it’s just me, I always find some of your responses condescending (no disrespect intended on you)

Probably this is your personality, but whatever it is, as much as I love the frankness of your tone, but this could be misunderstood.

There is no point trying to help out (as much as I understood your time might be well pressed, that you barely squeeze out time to support the community) and you rub it in while doing so.

Kindly be a little more pleasant and patient with your assistance, if you must help.

Thank you for all you do❤️

Hey, thanks for pointing it out. Sometimes I’m waiting for my son’s soccer practice, read the forum and just drop a short message on my phone to push things forward or try to do a quick help. This might come through wrong.

2 Likes

I disagree with you wholeheartedly. Concise answers while conveying the value of best practices isn’t condescending. Good manners would also dictate this be sent in a private message directly to @joeyk if you felt like your opinion was important enough to communicate it. Instead you chose to post it as an admonishment. Shameful.

I support Joeyk and his right to give clear and concise answers while encouraging people to use Mautic with integrity. Those that take offense are displaying their character and entitlement. Not the other way around.

2 Likes

Hi folks, I wanted to hop in as things are getting a little heated, to remind us all that we are each entitled to our opinions of what is OK and not OK when it comes to sending bulk emails, and whether content is or isn’t spammy is a very subjective topic.

What I believe @joeyk was raising is that not using the correct headers when sending emails which are being sent in bulk rather than individual mails, is generally deemed to be bad practice and hence is more likely in the long run to land your campaigns (and potentially your business) in hot water with your email providers. The way this is being done in the examples above is exploiting a loophole and eventually you will get caught. We have folk coming to these forums who are very early on in their Marketing Automation journey, and it is important that they understand the potential impact of things like this fully before they follow any suggestions.

In terms of the later posts, sending through Mautic indeed adds the correct unsubscribe headers, as it should, and it’s then up to you to work hard to make sure they land in the right place in your customers’ mailboxes.

This isn’t a quick fix to placing well in inboxes with bulk sending (generally speaking) - trust takes time to grow and you need to be sending good quality content and applying best practices consistently if you want to achieve this consistently.

@xuzo seeing as you say that you found the solution, perhaps you could share it for all to see and understand/learn from? Of course, assuming it doesn’t involve more bad practice which could result in further problems down the line for folk who might come across this.

@dewale.michael I appreciate you raising that Joey’s tone was a bit direct in the earlier reply - we are all doing our best and indeed sometimes a quick response can indeed do more harm than good as Joey expressed in his follow up response.

@EJL also appreciate the suggestion about taking it to PM rather than replying, but in this case I disagree. The reply was kindly phrased and appreciating of Joey’s time, while raising that the earlier reply was a little harsh.

We are all learning and I for one appreciate a kindly delivered, gentle nudge if I’ve overstepped the mark. Sure, maybe it is nicer to come via DM but then the other folk in the message thread don’t know that happened.

I’m not sure I agree with this either, because raising with someone that something they said or did landed in a way that came across as offensive isn’t a reflection of your character or entitlement in my opinion. It’s an opportunity to help someone see the world from another perspective, one they may not be aware of. An opportunity to learn and grow.

For the interest of all, in future, there is also the opportunity to flag any message that you feel oversteps the mark or violates the Code of Conduct - this will raise it with the moderation team who you can also mention using @ moderators - for review and discuss it directly with those involved. We are here to help :heart_decoration:

1 Like

Sorry @EJL my observation came across to you like so.

To be honest I didn’t react because I wanted the attention, so you probably got it all wrong here (no disrespect intended bro)

And like you suggested I could have private chat him, but who does that? We do not have an existing relationship that could make that fathomable, other than what I have observed over a period.

I honestly meant no harm.

But all love here❤️

I appreciate your view on the matter as well, sure next time would find a better approach.

Peace brov

1 Like

Was the “But do as you like :slight_smile:” that you pointed out @dewale.michael?
I meant to answer the question about deleting the forum post. Originally it was a longer sentence, and the ‘But’ stayed there, sorry for the confusion.
And yes @rcheesley, exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you.

I would like to ad that this issue is not fixed, and I have other guys that did testing also, not cold email guys, newsletters, opt in guys.

Today I got on chat with him, for hours, we just can’t make it work, it lands in wrong folders.

Either Spam, promotions or updates. We have proof and 100’s of tests.

As I said before, all other solutions land in inbox, only Mautic doesn’t.

All my domains have stellar reputations, DKIM, SPF, Dmarc, decades old accounts that pass all tests, except with mautic.

Promotions is about as valuable as spam…we want people to read our emails, not ignore them!

Do you guys read emails in promotions folder? I don’t…

Thank you for your reply :wink:

I understand that we need to keep spammers away, but other platforms land in inbox…including Outlook with delayed send, Thunderbird with send later addon, then you have Lemlist, Mailchimp, Mailgun, Gmass, Yamm, SalesHandy and more…any mail merge solution lands into inbox.

And actually Mautic can somehow, but need to play around with it, only the code template seems to work, no links, no tokens, and very plain message like “hi Mom, how are you”…no unsubscribe link either, that’s a sure way to promotions or spam…

Anything else fails, the stock templates work however, but only work if you don’t change the text, as soon as you ad your own text, no matter what you input, it goes in spam or promotions.

Have you tried testing this yourself? Please test a few segments?

I agree with @dewale.michael, this is what led me to quit a particular forum, even if someone knows absolutely nothing, if you can help, please help. We all started from somewhere, so, let’s be welcoming :wink:

2 Likes

@rcheesley @joeyk @xuzo: Please read this post as it requires immediate attention. If I missed any Mautic contributor or developer, please relay this message to them. It’s HIGHLY PERTINENT!

I can confirm @xuzo’s findings. The person he mentioned on this post earlier regarding “testing buddy” was me.

He and I were thoroughly testing our deliverability for days not hours. I can confirm that there is a big bug in mautic that needs to be fixed ASAP.

Here are my specs:

Mautic paired with Amazon SES for smtp. DMARC, DKIM, and SPF records set flawlessly. My subscribers are warm leads meaning they opted in. My domain is more than a year old. I am using a subdomain not a root domain to preserve the integrity of the root domain in case for whatever reason my subdomain gets blacklisted.

My IP address was warmed up properly in the past.

My reputation score is close to a 100%. I have no complaints or bounces thus far and my mautic was set up back on Feb 2020.

My mautic was also set up properly using a dedicated vps and the linux command. Trust me when I say this, I have more than 200 pages of mautic documentation saved on my desktop. I have crossed all tssss and dotted all my isss. I am very meticulous to the eye drop when it comes to setting up things correctly from the start.

I am only mentioning this because I know someone will say this problem might be due to my mautic install. I can assure you the answer to this question is a resounding NO, until proven otherwise.

The following email tests were done on two of my gmail accounts, 19 gmass accounts, and 6 gmail accounts from xuzo:

1. Using the Mautic Theme Code Template: No Tokens. No Links. Plain vanilla email that’s non-promotional and non-spammy. Subject of the email: Question About Your Case:

a. Personal Gmail #1 PASSED - Primary Inbox:
https://prnt.sc/v9ureq
b. Personal Gmail #2 PASSED - Primary Inbox:
https://prnt.sc/v9uslb
c. Gmass PASSED - Inbox > Updates:
https://prnt.sc/v9uszq

2. Using the Mautic Theme Code Template: First Name Token Only. Two Links. SAME Email Content as #1 above that’s non-promotional and non-spammy. Subject of the email: Question About Your Case:

a. Personal Gmail #1 PASSED - Primary Inbox:
https://prnt.sc/v9uvir
b. Personal Gmail #2 PASSED - Primary Inbox:
https://prnt.sc/v9uvu6
c. Gmass PASSED - Inbox > Updates:
https://prnt.sc/v9uwac

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE BELOW TEST. AS SOON AS I ADD THE UNSUBSCRIBE TOKEN, ALL TEST FAILS. UNSUBSCRIBE TOKEN IS THE CULPRIT AND MAYBE EVEN OTHER TOKENS FOR THAT MATTER. TAKE A LOOK HERE: https://prnt.sc/v9uxxv

3. Using the Mautic Theme Code Template: First Name Token. Unsubscribe Token. Two Links. SAME Email Content as #1 above that’s non-promotional and non-spammy. Subject of the email: Question About Your Case:

a. Personal Gmail #1 FAILED - Promotions:
https://prnt.sc/v9v077
b. Personal Gmail #2 FAILED - Promotions:
https://prnt.sc/v9v0m4
c. Gmass FAILED - Promotions:
https://prnt.sc/v9v1g9

As confirmed by xuzo, the results were the same for all three tests using his 6 gmail accounts.

To keep this message in brevity, I am not going to attach screenshots of the other tests we ran using other mautic theme email templates.

In a nutshell, trust us when we say this, we encountered inconsistent problems using the blank and vibrant templates. These were the only other templates we tested. I am sure problems exists with other templates.

With the vibrant template, if we use the same email as in test #1 above without links or tokens, the email will land in promotions. If we didn’t change the email, it will land in primary inbox.

Also for the record, xuzo tested the same email conducted in my tests only using Gmass, Saleshandy, Yamm app (not mautic) and all tests passed meaning the emails landed in Primary inbox, not promotions or spam. However, his results were the opposite as soon as he fired the email from Mautic.

I so kindly and humbly ask the Mautic developers to please urgently fix this debilitating problem. This is not a way to run a business at all.

Hi, I appreciate you testing it so much. I am also someone who likes to dig deeper into deliverability. It is a topic, that changing fast. As spammers try to avoid being cought, ESPs are setting up better and better protection against them.

I noticed this:

My domain is more than a year old. I am using a subdomain not a root domain to preserve the integrity of the root domain in case for whatever reason my subdomain gets blacklisted.

My experience is, that this is no protection, only Yahoo handles subdomain separately, for Gmail a burned subdomain will destroy your domain as well. I suggest to use a different domain, if you are afraid, that your domain rep might be damaged.

My IP address was warmed up properly in the past.

I’m a little bit confused. If you are using Amazon’s shared IP, it is already pre-warmed, and good to go up to like 5 million / day.
If you are using a rented IP, for what daily amount did you warm up? During warmup did you experience initial resistance from Gmail?

My reputation score is close to a 100%. I have no complaints or bounces thus far and my mautic was set up back on Feb 2020.

How did you measure your reputation, I mean what service? Can you show a screenshot?
What amounts were you sending before this test using this domain?

Also in order to troubleshoot you, please make it clear if your Mautic tracking domain is the same as the sending domain. Until you answer the questions above it is really hard to say anything.

When you test deliverability

When all the above infos are answered, we need to look at the methodology you are using.
Testing 1-100 emails is no deliverability testing. It’s like watching the SW Holiday Special, and deciding, that George Lucas is a bad director. (Don’t mention Jar Jar)

And as I said above you are comparing apples and oranges.

When you are using a mail merge, like the services you compared Mautic with, you are imitating that you are sending a personal message. You can do that for a about 500 emails / day in my experience (Gmail even has cap on your daily send, connect the dots)

When you are sending bulk, you are honestly admitting it, by adding the Bulk tag and recognizing the Mautic fingerprint in the email body, Gmail starts with you cautious (this is why you are in promotions) . But eventually - if your relationship with your recipient is good, than it will move you the inbox. What happens (and I’ll talk about this in the MautiCon - get your tickets now), the tail of your send will be lifted up, and you keep inboxing as you delivery good content.

Merge software is good, when you want to send small amounts, and bulk software is good when you send larger amounts. The inboxing goes like this in both cases:

Actually the drop should be a lot sharper for the red line. It should be around 10% when you hit 2000 emails.

Deliverability is a process, not a snapshot. You should try to test with many many email addresses from different providers. Glockapps actually does this for you (No affiliation). As you said you are using this for a business, you can easily afford it.
You can really good reports, like this:

One word or using another tracking domain can change the outcome of a whole campaign.

About the Mautic templates.

I litmus tested them one by one, and also found, that they won’t display properly in some email readers. I think, once the email builder is changed, we can make some progress there together with the community. You can contribute to the code or the conversation here: https://github.com/mautic/mautic/issues/7360

Good luck
J

2 Likes

@joeyk Thanks for your timely contribution.

My IP address was warmed up properly in the past.

What I meant to say here is my IP address is already warmed up by Amazon. I put this notice here just in case someone asks if my IP is warm.

My reputation score is close to a 100%. I have no complaints or bounces thus far and my mautic was set up back on Feb 2020.

Amazon has a reputation section when you are logged in. Here is mine: https://prnt.sc/vabmfh. The only emails I sent in the past were test emails to my personal accounts to verify deliverability. And trust me when I say this, I ran a lot of these tests.

As such, a lot of emails were sent to my personal and gmass accounts for testing purposes. In fact, Amazon has a section which shows how many emails were sent until now. Mine shows over 1,000 emails over 248 days: https://prnt.sc/vabq6l.

My tracking domain isn’t the same as the sending domain. My sending domain is news@news.cubitize.com. My tracking domain is news.cubitize.com. My tracking domain is the same domain I used to install my mautic. That’s where I go to log into my account.

See for yourself for proof of verification…
Sending domain: https://prnt.sc/vabk38
Tracking domain for unsubscribe link: https://prnt.sc/vabexe

From my experience, thorough testing, and knowledge, this isn’t a Debbie Downer. This won’t affect deliverability. I just showed three testing scenarios and how the unsubscribe token is the culprit.

If the incongruent tracking domain was a problem then why didn’t Google place my email in promotions tab in scenario #2 as I had AND two links in that email?

Regarding your comments about voluminous testing for accurate deliverability…

It’s irrelevant and doesn’t add up with my use case.

My question is why does scenario #3 fail when I use unsubscribe token? It is clearly evident that’s the culprit. No ifs or buts. No beating around the bush. The unsubscribe token in mautic is broken causing my emails to land in promotion. I tested this with 27 gmail accounts. All failed 100%. Even if I deliver this same email to 1,000,000 gmail accounts, they will fail. What makes you think the more the merrier in this scenario?

If I can’t pass a simple plain vanilla email test (scenario #3) using a small batch of gmail accounts, what makes you think that if I sent this same email with the same unsubscribe token to more gmail accounts they would land in primary inbox?

I am not following your points here…

When you are sending bulk , you are honestly admitting it, by adding the Bulk tag and recognizing the Mautic fingerprint in the email body, Gmail starts with you cautious (this is why you are in promotions)

I am not sending in bulk. Each of the testing scenarios were performed twice. One for our personal gmails (8 total) and another for gmass only. If scenario #3 fails after the first test sending to only 8 gmail accounts and then fails again when we test it separately just for gmass, this tells you the unsubscribe token, since that’s the only thing that changed from scenario #2 to #3, is problematic without a doubt.

For the record, I am not using mail merge. Xuzo I believe is. My setup is very simple. Mautic + SES. Nothing else. My troubleshooting steps very simple. Three scenarios with the same email content, theme default, and subject, yet scenario #3 fails with the unsubscribe token.

One word or using another tracking domain can change the outcome of a whole campaign.

This is simply not true for my use case. Again, my tracking domain isn’t the same as sending domain. So why did scenario #2 pass if I have two links that point to a different domain than my sending domain?

Hi,
Let’s step one back, and use what I have to try to help you to understand what is going on (in my opinon):

After I wrote this meesage I would like to add, that these are just the main points I can address, cause I really don’t have time to take a deeper dive, you should really read about tracking links and why is it bad if your tracking domain resolves with an error like in your case, why many redirects are bad. This is a Mautic forum, there are better places to learn inboxing.

So back to your post:

Amazon has a reputation section when you are logged in. Here is mine: https://prnt.sc/vabmfh . The only emails I sent in the past were test emails to my personal accounts to verify deliverability.

That is non relevant. It is not your domain reputation. That is your Amazon in house reputation, what determins if they want to kick you out or not. What Amazon thinks about you, not what Gmail or any spam filter thinks about you. It has 0 Effect on your delivery.

And trust me when I say this, I ran a lot of these tests.

I’m not being condescending :slight_smile: and I trust you about running these tests, but I think you need to do some reading:
Start here: https://help.returnpath.com/hc/en-us/articles/220569187-What-is-Sender-Score-and-how-is-it-calculated-
This is where you start if you want to send bulk messages.

I am not sending in bulk.

Yes, you are. Even if you write it with bold or all caps.

This is why: you using the unsubscribe header in your Mautic emails. Because you are stating it (Mautic kindly does it for you) in your email: precedence: bulk. You are using the word ‘unsubscribe’ in your emails. It is hard coded for your own good by Mautic.

It’s like on TV: once you are in the commercial block, people know you are airing a commercial.

And this is why your single email tests are failing you. You said it yourself: once you place the unsubscribe in the email, you go to a promotion.

I checked xuzo’s header, it is clearly confirming this:

(In addtition he is trying to compare a text only email with a html email. A html email will perform always worse for a one time test than a mail merged text email.)

No ifs or buts. No beating around the bush. The unsubscribe token in mautic is broken causing my emails to land in promotion.

I’m trying to tell you, that this is not a bug, it is a feature. First you will spambox, and as you keep delivery good, personalized content, that is wanted and relevant for your customers, you will inbox.
And this is not a Mautic related thing. It is an Emailing related thing. ANY self hosted marketing tool will behave like this.

This is my last couple of days delivery to an audience:

It will be never 100%, but I’m happy with 40%-50% open rate on 400 emails.
This is another audience, where I sent a less relevant email:

Sending a brand new offer and getting almost 30% open rate is not bad. Any marketer will confirm that.

Just sent out a campaign last night, and I think Mautic performs not bad. This will climb up to 40% in the next days.

I moved to Mautic, because I’m getting better results in comparison to ANY emailing tool.

But not for cold emails on scale.

Best of luck to you.

3 Likes

@joeyk Listen Joey. I appreciate the fact you are taking time out of your busy schedule to respond to this post. It means a lot.

Thank you for also sharing your mautic campaign results. In my opinion any open rate greater than 7% for a marketer is considered very good and you are getting almost 30% average. That is stellar.

If at any point, my tonality comes off aggressive, don’t take it personal. It is just that xuzo and I lost days and for him weeks of time trying to find a resolution to this dilemma.

I hear most of your points. But I am still not convinced.

First off, we aren’t comparing apples to apples. You say you are getting almost a 30% open rate. I don’t even know how many of those opens are gmail related. All I know, most if not all of those opens can be Yahoo, Hotmail, and other ESPs.

Have you tried running a test to gmass with the unsubscribe token basically replicating my steps above?

I am very very curious to know what your results look like with gmass if you send the same exact email, with the same exact subject line, and the same exact template with the unsubscribe token I used in scenario #3. Can you please do a test run and compare our results.

Secondly, this point doesn’t make sense still:

I’m trying to tell you, that this is not a bug, it is a feature. First you will spambox, and as you keep delivery good, personalized content, that is wanted and relevant for your customers, you will inbox.
And this is not a Mautic related thing. It is an Emailing related thing. ANY self hosted marketing tool will behave like this.

It’s not an email related thing. You shouldn’t be landing in spam period right off the bat. Even if you go self hosted, if you properly warm up your IPs and have the correct DNS records, your emails should be inboxing. Just because you are the new kid on the block doesn’t mean ESPs AUTOMATICALLY place your emails in spam. They go to spambox because of improper configuration, using a bad IP, using a bad domain, spammy emails, and not making good use of throttling. PERIOD!

Neither of these examples apply to either me or xuzo so inboxing should happen immediately which it does in scenarios 1 and 2 but not 3.

To further prove our point here, when we use Mailwhizz (this has been confirmed by my colleagues by the way as well), which is a self hosted email app similar to Mautic, our emails don’t go to promotions. They don’t go to spam either. I have everything setup in the same manner. I have my unsubscribe tag as well. No issues thus far.

Plus, on top of it, I am using cold emails. I am not using SES because of the type of emails I am using, but the nonetheless smtp is irrelevant. What’s relevant here is how mautic automatically marks your email as “bulk” as soon as the unsubscribe token is used.

So how do you explain this? My emails aren’t warm; my IP still hasn’t been warmed up, but when I do a very basic small email test with Mailwizz sending to about 27 gmail accounts with unsubscribe tag they ALL get inboxed.

In fact, courtesy to xuzo, Mailwizz even has a notice on how wrong headers can fail email delivery. Take a look here: https://prnt.sc/vbcil1. The fact that Mautic places this unsubscribe header and marks the email as “bulk” isn’t for our own good if the email lands in promotions, right?

As such, we believe in good faith based on our THOROUGH testing with Mautic and other third party email apps, that this issue stems from the mautic unsubscribe header/token. It has nothing to do with our email content as we aren’t sending spammy emails nor does it have to do with the “waiting game” (i.e. sending a flow of emails consistently to warm up our inboxing).